Curse

bena · Jun 06, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I lol'd. There are a lot of bad players that c spacebar and 1-8 on anything, even when using RoJ. It's sad, but they aren't bots.

But I do agree, there are a lot of bots in JQ and it's getting really bad. The worst is this stupid Charge bot I always report. Charge to Yellow shrine iirc, attack stuff till it dies then breaks and sits in base.

stupid players dont usually remember to hit fall back exactly on recharge....

stupid players dont always go to the jade flats sign when waiting in outpost to get back in...

stupid players dont remember to go after object (yellow shrine) then half a second later turn around and target nearest foe....

Ive seen plenty of bad players.... none of them do that. im sure anet would have more tools to detect them with or without those bots having a few second randomizers plugged in (which i dont think they do but i havent tested)

for example, attempting to hit skills while in the outpost in the same manner that they use them in the mission.

ive seen that charge bot a few times in game.... nothing compared to how many times ive seen the mo/p bots from the same two guild tags running in jq. the same names even... for over a month.

as for teams forcing more gimmickyness on JQ... think about it. how much gimickyness is in AB? forming teams should result in a reduction of gimmickiness as much as the map allows...

Longasc · Jun 06, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

We always got told so far that gazillions of bots, gold sellers and whatever get banned daily.

I wonder how long it takes to remove some of the regular bots in JQ. I met this bot already as I was playing on the Kurzick side weeks ago.

I do not know when GMs/Support take action, I fear it requires several reports of a lot of people in several matches. And then there is still no guarantee that something happens it seems. People are also notoriously lazy at reporting bots. As I quoted, "at least he's moving".

Esprit · Jun 06, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

In my opinion the bots in JQ/FA are different than your gold bots or farm bots. There are real players using a bot script to make some easy faction and selling keys. If Anet started cracking down a little harder on these players using bot scripts the problem would noticeably decrease.

Devina Fava · Jun 06, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

In my opinion the bots in JQ/FA are different than your gold bots or farm bots. There are real players using a bot script to make some easy faction and selling keys. If Anet started cracking down a little harder on these players using bot scripts the problem would noticeably decrease.

My point exactly. But I don't think Anet give a stuff and, as with their leecher reporting system of old when the conscientious people seemed to get penalised more than the actual leechers, I fear now it's the same whereby the people that bother trying to report the bots just get a canned reply, no action taken, effort wasted, and possibly laughed at.

Longasc · Jun 06, 2009, 12:15 PM // 12:15

There are some regular bots. They all got reported.

Now lets see if anything happens.

Longasc · Jun 06, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

From NCSoft Support, regarding a bot report:

We reviewed the player's game logs, however no actionable violations were confirmed. Please let us know if you have any further questions.

"Fall Back" Good Job. "Fall Back"

No wonder the bots are having a party in JQ.

bena · Jun 06, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

From NCSoft Support, regarding a bot report:

We reviewed the player's game logs, however no actionable violations were confirmed. Please let us know if you have any further questions.

"Fall Back" Good Job. "Fall Back"

No wonder the bots are having a party in JQ.

that actually sums up the problem pretty well. we all know botting when we see it, yet it isnt possible to 100% prove it because macros mimic only things humans can do. a human could in fact be playing those 'bots' but it's extremely unlikely.

the crux of the problem is what exactly constitutes an ACTIONable offense? and if running macros to bot jq is not an actionable offense... JQ predictably turns into a botfest. its like saying... we know speeding is bad, but our radar guns are broken..... so we cant prove it. yet somehow everyone seems to get 90 miles down the road in under an hour.... hmmmmmm

what this essentially means is that the bots are unactionable... i guess because they cant prove it, they wont start handing out bans.

In this case the best solution is to make JQ team based, or buff AB. otherwise, botting will continue to strangle the JQ gameplay and other areas. or gms and enforcers or better detection ie things that cost money and resources (considering gw2 is in development i doubt this would be viable) or tell the community what EXACTLY an actionable offense is with relation to botting that is reasonably going to be applicable to macro bots. if there is none, then bots are an inevitability.

whats likely to happen? a buff to AB would be the simplest thing to do....doing nothing is even simpler.

Nay of the Ether · Jun 07, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I was messing with a bot in JQ just tonight actually. It was too funny. Apparently the AI doesn't expect the target to continue to run circles around it cause I just kept using my speed boost, running around it, letting my pet attack now and then to keep its attention, ect. All it could do was spin around in circles I LMAO

Devina Fava · Jun 07, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

From NCSoft Support, regarding a bot report:

We reviewed the player's game logs, however no actionable violations were confirmed. Please let us know if you have any further questions.

"Fall Back" Good Job. "Fall Back"

No wonder the bots are having a party in JQ.

That's essentially exactly what I got from them after a while. Even if my report included one or two questions which they never addressed. Makes you wonder if they have a bot to reply to bot reports

To be honest there is another solution to making it team base. Since Anet blatantly don't seem to give a stuff about botting... join them. I'm only borderline not being serious given how frustrating it is and how much time I've patently wasted reporting all these nuts manually.

I also maintain, if they can recreate the instance as the bot, it'll take all of 30s to confirm that that character is a bot.

Esprit · Jun 07, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Lately I have seen bots who never leave the base but wander around usually casting Aura of the Lich and Remove Hex, or Ranger setting traps and then eventually ending up behind the spawn point, casting skills all game long.

But those aren't bots, just bad players, right?

bena · Jun 07, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Lately I have seen bots who never leave the base but wander around usually casting Aura of the Lich and Remove Hex, or Ranger setting traps and then eventually ending up behind the spawn point, casting skills all game long.

But those aren't bots, just bad players, right?

I have seen what i thought were players doing that.... either first time players who didnt quickly figure out where the boundary lines were, or were there to map. i saw one player casting spirits at the spawn and started moving around like he was looking for enemies and didnt know wtf was going on lol. after timer hit and everyone disappeared he figured it out and started spirit spamming on yellow.

the key to look for is repeated actions at the same interval. the best example is ";" "space" bots. few, very very few humans would use the hotkey for that. fall back every 25 seconds no matter the situation for example. or like in your example remove hex every 8 seconds when no one has a hex or before the game starts. stupid players do stupid things, but bots do stupid things predictably.

here's another idea.... disable targeting objects in JQ, OR remove the objects from the mission. it will make it harder for the bots to get out of base. perhaps put a jade wall inbetween the portal circles and the spawn in points. players will know how to get around it... perhaps even make the route around it vary from map to map. like put the hole on the left one time and on the right the next or something. perhaps also vary the spawn in point to the left and right of inside the base. then auto hex players that dont leave base for 5 minutes, or certainly auto hex them for not leaving base for the match. auto hexing for not moving doesnt catch the bots that just move a tiny bit.

who knows what if anything is going to happen... but im hoping the next major update which is rumored to be for pvp lovin will include JQ with it. even if its just a buff to AB to be on par with JQ faction i'd be extremely happy.

Nay of the Ether · Jun 07, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I actually have a bad feeling about that next update. When I hear "pvpers will love it" it gives me a bad feeling lol.

AKB48 · Jun 08, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nay of the Ether

I actually have a bad feeling about that next update. When I hear "pvpers will love it" it gives me a bad feeling lol.

There is already a line between PvE and Pvp. Plus, nerfing things is already Anet's trademark, I will be surprised if there isn't any big change this time.

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

How will buffing AB help? The bots will still be having a party in JQ. Their returns are not diminished. Real players would have something to do other than JQ (and leave 8 bots to play 8 bots LOL) but that's all, and even then AB won't be very attractive if there still aren't enough Luxon teams and Kurzick waits are very long.

EDIT: Regina! Do something already! I just played 3 games in JQ and there were always bots - and it's a JQ quest day. What do you think it'll be normally?

evenfall · Jun 08, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I believe it is much harder to detect a JQ PvP bot than a normal PVE farm bot by looking at the server log.
A farm bot moves to the same location and casts skills in fixed sequence. A JQ bot on the other hand casts skills at random and c-space/v-space following a player/opponent.
Just by looking at the log they are probably indistinguishable from a real player.

This is likely why all the bots go unpunished even if you report them.

IMO the best solution is to have a random question popup before entering the mission since bots can't answer them.

bena · Jun 08, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by evenfall

I believe it is much harder to detect a JQ PvP bot than a normal PVE farm bot by looking at the server log.
A farm bot moves to the same location and casts skills in fixed sequence. A JQ bot on the other hand casts skills at random and c-space/v-space following a player/opponent.
Just by looking at the log they are probably indistinguishable from a real player.

This is likely why all the bots go unpunished even if you report them.

IMO the best solution is to have a random question popup before entering the mission since bots can't answer them.

but they arent randomly pushing buttons.... they are randomly showing some effects. they dont RoJ when there are no enemies in range... but what happens when you try that as a player? nothing. so it would seem like these bots arent always casting the same things but look at things you can observe... like fall back. ive timed a few, and they always hit it on 25 seconds exact recharge... even when they are standing still. and they are standing still because the last cycle of ";" "space" "tab" "space" didnt catch anything. also.... thats why they hang out on the sign.... the cycle of commands has only ONE noticable effect in jq outpost. they go for the jade flats sign. i can almost guaruntee you they are pushing tab space and roj buttons and fall back on recharge while in the outpost as well.

so its really really easy to detect a bot... observe thier actions in the outpost ... there are ways around this as a botter, for example pixel detect... but none of the bots have currently bothered with that.

Here is likly the macro setup that the JQ bot uses. (need a "next object" hotkey put into the gw options")

every 25 seconds hit fallback
every 30 seconds trigger a mouseclick on the pixel location that "enter mission" would be in jq outpost

every 10 seconds do the following cycle
";" "space"
1 second pause
"tab" "space"
button for castigation signet
button for RoJ
buttons for other random smite skills
"next object hotkey" "space"

this is by far the most common bot on luxon side. 95% or more of luxon bots run basically this code. and those bots are most commonly from two guild tags. some of the same names running for MONTHS.

now consider the fact that i have basically reverse engineered a bot, and could probably set one up to mimic the bots currently in use..... it really frustrates me to have anet say there is no actionable offense done by these bots. it's a really simple code... could definately be improved. I could make pixel detect run every second and when it detects roj being cast it would hit an interrupt. could suppress the fallback and object follow if pixel detect shows the timer or the enter mission window up. i could have it hit tab 5 times before casting roj and if it saw kurzick illusionist before that 5th time, then it would at least try to hit the middle npc.

i mean... would it help anet if i made a jqbot macro in the manner that all these luxon bots are running and then made a youtube vid and sent someone the code? i mean seriously... somebody needs to figure out what an actionable offense is given what people are doing. and given the code ive described above... if there is no current actionable offense there, then the rules need to change.

or well... forget it all and wait till gw2.

buffing AB wouldnt help JQ at all.... it would return JQ to a dead state most likely. but i read from linsey murdock that the original point of buffing JQ was that it would be on par with PvE FFF. like MQSC.... i guess the point is that they want people to be rewarded while having fun. and few people would think that doing speed vanqs over and over again would be fun other than turning in gobs of faction. so they make the PvP rewards in line with the PvE rewards. the difference being you also get balth faction for PvP. so thats why JQ got buffed apparently. but AB was left alone..... so maybe an analysis of the time/reward effort there is due to bring that to be on par with JQ. the thing i HATE about ab is it's always on that dam kurz map and all the good luxons dont ab on that map.

im glad the leechers are taken care of ... the auto hex is working great. and when there is a simple bot that takes small movements to avoid the auto hex... players actually report now because leeching is now sufficiently rare.

and yea seems like there are more botters.... ive been trying several tactics to avoid bots. first is that i play on jq zquest day and that increases the player base and thus reduces the odds of getting a bot. but today.... i played 4 games and 2 games had two bots. and i have a rule... i leave if there are 2 or more bots. so ofc i got hexed and went to play another game. the other thing i try to do is watch the jade flats sign, if there are bots on it, i wait till they get in, then i go. if there are none on the sign hopefully they are all in a game already and i can get in with all humans.

these tactics arent working anymore.... i think ill wait till the next weekend bonus that applies to jq or until hopefully some sort of update does something. there are plenty of options of things that can be done to fix or alleviate the issue. macro bots are hard to deal with in any game... not to mention each macro bot is a game account that affects revenue.... but you cant have a game run by bots...

/what a wall of text, i wonder if anyone would actually read it.
//i wrote the bot code up there

Redvex · Jun 08, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

There's also another problem.
A player report me because i was defending purple cave instead to go in the orgy in the yellow cave and he think that i am a bot.
In any case i never seen a spear chucker bot.
Every average player know that is essential for a kurzick to win to defend the purple cave.

Nay of the Ether · Jun 08, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Don't sweat it one random report won't get you banned

Jarus · Jun 08, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nay of the Ether

Don't sweat it one random report won't get you banned

From what people are saying, many random reports won't get you banned either.

oracle.delphi · Jun 08, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

-Psychic Distraction/ Power Lock/ Power Block against Ray of Judgement.
-Rend Enchantments against Necro bombers.
-Wastrels Worry on carriers.

Mesmers rule the quarry... it is just too easy.

yes the botter got this one too...someone in a jq group was getting rend enchantment used on him...when the guy had no enchantments...and the mesmer kept following him around...yay follow bot..